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I get
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welcome to Sputnik orbiting the world
with me George Gallow and me gatri when
I was 18 years old British paratroopers
opened fire on unarmed demonstrators
protesting in what the state regarded as
its own streets in the city of der in
the north of Ireland 14 people were
killed in broad daylight it was 42 years
ago this very week a rubrica had been
crossed nothing was ever the same again
in Britain or in Ireland as part of the
Good Friday agreement the British State
agreed to set up a public inquiry into
the events it proved the longest and
most expensive in history 12 years
costing £200 million the champion of the
victims families and Britain's most
celebrated Queen council is Michael
Mansfield QC and I'm glad to say he now
joins us on board the Sputnik Michael
thank you very much indeed for joining
us
this very week on the eve of the
anniversary some people in some parts of
Derry were climbing up lamp posts
hanging the paraphernalia and flags of
the parachute regiment who did The
Killing uh on Bloody Sunday so clearly
the issues the divisions in the
community haven't gone away but I wanted
to ask you as the uh leading champion of
the families in the saval inquiry if you
think that the families got Justice well
the families are the ones to answer that
but I happen to know what they would say
were they sitting right here with us now
because they've been asked it many many
times and the answer is always the same
absolutely yes unequivocal yes and the
reason they say that is as in your
introduction I mean you you have to
think of the historical context in which
it was launched they campaigned for that
for a long long time uh and eventually
persuaded across the divide across the
political divide uh a Tory leader and a
labor leader that this was the way
forward and they both agreed at that one
time that there should be a public
inquiry of the kind that was uh
eventually instigated now the kind that
was in it's not like any other it was
itself historical I mean you were asking
the panel there to look back over 30
years and if you can imagine trying to
troll over 30 years and trying to bring
in the evidence of all the various
stages the buildup to what happened on
Bloody Sunday it was an amazing exercise
and I think eventually we'll be seen as
a sort of historical epic to have
conducted I know it it cost money of
course it did but the people involved in
it felt at the end of the day as part of
the peace process this was putting
things on record and putting the record
straight because you will remember these
particular families were branded as
terrorists themselves and and they
denied it and they were blamed and they
wanted that to be sloughed off and in
the end it was there's been no charges
yeah am I right in saying arising out of
it although the body of evidence itself
could not be used as part of the deal
for prosecution people who gave evidence
could have then been reinterviewed by
the police and have given the same
evidence and it could have been induced
to Bringing people to book we have a
fairly clear idea they're named as a A
and B and C and so on of who was firing
these fatal shots at unarmed peaceful
demonstrators on the streets of the
British State uh but no one has been
brought to book I think it gives rise to
a very interesting it's a
dilemma uh for the families some of the
families and the first point is this I
always viewed it a little bit like the
South African Truth and Reconciliation
Commission in other words it was a NE
necessary Lancing of the boil in order
to move on in other words you you put on
record what really happened and for some
people that was actually enough to get
that RIT large as it were over history
to get the truth
known but for others it wasn't because
they want accountability they want
somebody at the end of the day to be
made accountable in other words
prosecuted so there's a division of
opinion not all the families necessarily
think the same way and of course there
is as with South Africa there was an
interesting um as it were formula worked
out now in the in the da case the
formula was this it wasn't that the
evidence in the inquiry couldn't be
used the evidence that you give against
yourself couldn't be used against you
but if you gave evidence against me what
you said in the inquiry against me could
be used okay so it's it's an interesting
and in South Africa they had a slightly
different arrangement and I think it's
very important for the future because
there are all sorts of theaters of war
in the world where this sort of
arrangement should be considered in
South Africa what they said was well
we're going to give you the opportunity
you the perpetrator to meet the victim
and we're going to give you the
opportunity to confess now if you don't
confess then you might be prosecuted but
if you do confess then you get immunity
now of course that's a slightly
different Arrangement but it produced
all sorts of uh people coming coming out
of the woodwork and rising to the
surface and so the people in South
Africa felt expensive though that was
that it was an exercise well worth
undertaking so I think going back to
Derry I think the families say to
themselves and will say to the world we
did get Justice in the end of the day
and if you been there as I was on the
day that the report reached Derry it was
you know I'm I'm not religious but I
think I'm a bit spiritual I have to say
you know the spirits of Derry just rose
up off the streets and I've never been
anywhere like well I have since in
hillsbor for Liverpool but that was
something I'd not experienced before was
a a people felt at last that the burden
that They Carried had been lifted do the
families accept the apology coming from
Prime Minister David Cameron yes I I I
you know I I'm not a Tory far from it
but you know credit where it's due I
watched his speech we weren't allowed to
you know go into public before he spoke
in the House of Commons and his speech
in the House of Commons
was brilliant it was on the fukan case
also actually I think he was sincerely
apologetic I think he he he may have
been pushed into a situation whereby he
had didn't have a lot of options but
nevertheless you can have mey mouthed
people who don't rise to it he rose to
it I have to say he did the same for
Hillsboro he rose to it and gave you
know an unvarnished untarnished apology
that's what they wanted and the fake I
call it fake you're an officer of the
Court probably can't the the wiery
inquiry was one of the most shameful
whitewashes the original inquiry into
Bloody Sunday it's hard now looking back
on it to avoid having your breath taken
away by the brazenness of that
whitewash well I I I suppose I'm a bit
sanguin uh yes it was a white wash
there's no question about that an
orchestrated whitewash but I started
practicing at about that time so that's
the beginning of my career not quite the
beginning but near the beginning and one
has to recognize that there was a sort
of attitude of mind at that time there
was a an
Institutional denial that the
institution themselves gets anything
wrong and an Institutional almost
automatic knee-jerk reaction to support
the Agents of the state and that goes
right the way through to the law chief
justice being actually visited by the
law Chancellor and having private
meetings about how he's going to
organize the the inquiry so I mean it's
just it's a shocking episode and I I I
don't want to shut the door on that
because I want to say be careful because
these things can occur again when people
in power are desperate to hold on to
power all and and we have at the moment
I think in the world I mean we have Mr
Snowden effectively locked up for
telling the truth and he's regarded as a
spy because he's blown the whistle on
the people who are really spying on all
of us so it seems to me we have to be
super alert for this ability of major
institutions to say it's all right don't
worry we're looking after you no thank
you only people of your age and mine uh
and older were there at the time can
remember the shots can remember that
grainy footage on our black and white
TVs uh and we have many many viewers
overseas summarize if you would uh
Michael the findings of the cvil inquiry
what actually happened on that day
official no well the official finding is
really quite a short one and it's it's U
for that reason it's cogent I mean what
what they're really saying at the ground
and on the ground is that there was a
March nobody disputes that and it was
effectively meant to be a peace March
ending up with bernardet develin and
other well-known figures addressing the
March about civil rights which civil
rights in in the North
I can spend obviously another hour on
that that the way they were breached
particularly for the Catholic
communities and a part of Derry known as
the bog side was closely identified with
that so in other words whether it's
voting housing employment all the normal
things were denied in some measure to
the Catholic population in a Protestant
dominated uh north of Ireland that's
what it that what what it was really
about so they were marching because it
said we've had enough of this we we need
to be
recognized so the march of course the
government didn't want and as is
happening in Egypt at the moment and
elsewhere in the world they're banning
anything they don't want so the M the
March was banned politically but they
carried on and so the troops were
brought in now the troops of course have
no love of um some of them anyway
certainly had no love and they had
undoubtedly formed and Wilford was the
commanding officer at the time and he's
quite proud of it he had formed views
about people who he regarded as
insurgents and how do you deal with
insurgents well of course the British
have had a lot of experience of dealing
with insurgents whether it's you know in
the Middle East or Malaya uh and so on
so they practiced how they deal with it
and they brought the if you like the
tactics of the military onto the streets
of Derry onto uh the you know streets of
the United kingd as it as it then stood
obviously and the tactics were
essentially you go in hard and you shoot
first and you ask questions afterwards
and if you happen to have shot the wrong
people then you have to say ah but they
they shot us first they're the
terrorists and we just you know and the
problem that came out of this judgment
effectively and it's never been resolved
of
course one is that you know the the
decision was that these were effectively
unlawful killings because the people who
were killed were not armed
terrorists so if they're not the armed
terrorists you have to say to the Army
well where were the people you were
shooting at who you said were shooting
at you of course they don't exist do
they the final judgment is effectively
unlawful killing on the streets of the
United Kingdom by agents of the state
and that's why a number of families very
recently have been saying and certainly
it it is being considered as I speak
that whe there should be prosecutions
relating to those people who pull the
trigger but can I just develop it
because I I'm more I'm concerned about
those who pull triggers but actually how
do they get to that position I'm much
more interested in the layers above and
and um the savil inquiry didn't really
take it right up to the top because
actually in my view there is an element
of responsibility that can be traced
right through to the top to the cabinet
room to the cabinet room Michael
Mansfield QC if I was ever in trouble
and I hope I never will be I wish I'd
had you in my corner after the break
we'll be looking at Europe's Most
Explosive Flash point where Western
governments are doing everything they
can literally to findan the Flames the
Ukraine I'll be right
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back what is our story who's writing it
and where is it leading to seeking true
bearings we seem to turn to the news but
take heed for the medium is the message
and this most viral meme on the planet
is now the method for defining
Collective reality each night if it's
not on the news it didn't happen right
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on June 16th 1941 we had a graduation
party at school and the war broke
out the shops were always full of
goods in September Leningrad was
blocked one day mom went and saw that
all the shelves were
empty in November they bombed the BVI
warehouses
it was the main storage place for all
the food in the city people were eating
the Earth because it had small traces of
sugar in it I tried to eat it as well
but I
couldn't that night there was incredibly
heavy
boming there was a direct hit on that
very shelter and everyone was buried
underneath all of them were dead
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do we speak your
language want news programs and
documentaries in Arabic it's all here on
RT reporting from the world's hotpots
VIP interviews intriguing stories are
you
here then try RTI Arabic find out more
visit arabic.rt.com
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welcome back to Sputnik President Putin
this week warned the European Union to
keep their noses out of Ukraine where
fascists far-right nationalists and
others are mounting a violent and
increasingly armed assault on the
elected president and his government
policemen have been killed others set on
fire all on prime time TV if the same
sort of Uprising happened in London the
mayor Boris Johnson this week said the
police should go medieval on the rioters
and in terms of the media coverage of
the protest in Ukraine the Western
networks who would be cheering for their
own police forces to go medieval on
protesters if these things were
happening in their own countries are
instead cheering on the molotov cocktail
shakers abroad in his state of the Union
speech President Obama expressed that in
Ukraine we stand for the principle that
all people have the right to express
themselves freely and peacefully and
have a say in their country's future
with the emphasis on Peaceful us
right-wing Republican cold warrior John
McCain however is marching on the
streets of Kev and the EU has sent its
rather less Savage the baress Ashton as
a mediator to a non-eu country where the
elected government hasn't even invited
her joining us now to discuss what's
happening in Ukraine is regional expert
author and broadcaster Neil Clark Neil
thanks for joining us on the Sputnik
welcome we've seen policemen being
stabbed on TV we've seen policemen on TV
being set on fire if this was happening
in Occupy Wall Street or happening in
Tottenham the police would shoot the
perpetrators dead yeah yet the British
political and media class are on the
side of the riers explain well
absolutely I think the double standards
are absolutely glaring in this George
because uh just imagine if in London we
had far right Neo-Nazi racist Ultra
nationalist groups protesting in the
Streets of London rioting in the Streets
of London led by say the BMP and the edl
let's just imagine that was happening
and that these these riers were
attacking the police were throwing molet
of cocktails at them and were trying to
occupy government buildings in a blatant
attempt to bring down the elected
government can you imagine what the
British establishment what the British
Elite journalists would be saying saying
as you said they would be these people
would be rounded up they'd be put to
prison they'd be and the whole movement
would be closed down yet the very same
British Elite is cheering on these
people that are doing this in the
Ukraine and it's not sort of borderline
these people are neo-nazis these people
are fascists well let's look at the
ontology of it uh because uh our friend
Sheamus milin the guardian this week has
analyzed it in detail not only is the
core of this body of rioter openly
fascist the swaba yeah it actually has
been outflanked on its right exactly by
even more extreme fascists who say that
Ukraine is run by Jews yes uh and SDA of
course have torch light processions yes
uh in Lov which they actually control in
uh in Western Ukraine uh torch light
processions in remembrance of the
fascist collaborator with the Nazi
occupation of Ukraine exactly Sten
Bandera describe the makeup of this mle
well we' got to look back at history and
look back at the history of the Ukraine
during the 1940s and when the uh Soviet
Union uh uh was was attacked by Nazi
Germany you had large sections of of
Western Ukraine actually supporting the
Nazis and the Ukrainian Independence
Movement helped the Nazis in this and
the man who was in charge of this
movement was a man called stepan Bandera
and it's his posters his pictures of him
that are being portrayed and being being
held by the so-called Democratic Pro
democr protesters in Kiev it's just like
as I said having far right neo-nazis
marching through London holding pictures
of swal Mosley and what the outrage
would be from the British establishment
about that of course some of the British
media did support Oswald Mosley at the
time absolutely good point but uh I want
to pause you on this uh question of uh
the hatred of Jews anti-Semitism y uh
there are people on the so-called left
as well as in the so-called mainstream
who are forever hunting a stray remark
that can possibly be interpreted as
anti-semitic on the part of Palestinians
or Arabs or Muslims or those who support
them yeah here we have prominent us
politicians and prominent EU politicians
sharing platforms with openly
anti-semitic fascist organizations how
come the media is not highlighting this
what it shows to me that this uh the
so-call fake Le I like to call them and
the British uh Elites their kind of war
against anti-Semitism is a sham same as
the so-called Crusade against homophobia
is a sham it's used highly selectively
because as we know there are people who
spend 24/7 on Twitter monitoring uh
genuine socialists for so-called
anti-semitic comments anything the
Palestinian movement etc for any comment
that could be constru or misconstrued as
anti-semitic and yet you've got John
McCain who's a pinup boy of the fake
proar left the neoconservative American
Senator going out there having breakfast
with Mr tanok who is a man who has a
history of anti-jewish anti-Semitic uh
rhetoric he said in 2004 that Ukraine
was run by a a moscovite Jewish Mafia
this is a man who is a homophobe he's
outspokenly opposed to homosexuals and
yet you've got McCain who's the great
hero of the Cru missile left in Britain
having breakfast with him and standing
on a platform with him is this the
beginning of the end for the ukrainians
state are we looking at potential
partition uh because the East and the
south of the country is wholly against
the events uh in Kiev indeed some parts
of Kiev are against it but there seems
to be a dichotomy between West and East
with the South being with the East well
I think we've got to look at the bigger
geostrategic political uh picture of
this and the battle for Ukraine is
really a battle being launched by
Western Elites the Western Elites want
Ukraine they want to lock it into what
call Euro Atlantic structures which
means getting the Ukraine into the EU
and into NATO and to prize it away from
Russia because for these Western Elites
2013 was a very bad year it was a year
reverses they they hellbent on regime
change at any cost in in in Syria it
hasn't happened yeah and so it's sort of
payback time now for Russia they want to
get Ukraine away from Russia and they
don't care how much Bloodshed whether
they plunge the country into Civil War
and as they've shown with Syria they
will go to any extent they will back any
people however extreme in order to
achieve this Aim so this is all about
the West trying to uh lock Ukraine into
their empire really me we've seen from
Yugoslavia in 1999 Iraq in 2003 in Syria
and now in Ukraine that when the Western
Elites want regime change they will go
to any length to get it Al anybody they
were Al with alqaeda they were Al with
with alqaeda in Syria and we're with the
anti-semitic fascists Ukraine Ukraine
exactly it's about the enemy of my enemy
is my friend and Russia is their enemy
uh the people who are rioting in Kev and
in other cities do not represent the
majority opinion in the Ukraine uh there
are elections due next February February
2015 is the next presidential elections
now if you were a democrat in Ukraine
you'd say well let's wait for these and
so why aren't the opposition waiting for
the elections if they're so confident
that they've got majority support why
not simply wait a year and take power
legally why are they trying to force out
yanukovich and I think that gives the
game away they don't have the support
that we're led to believe the stakes are
very high here George because if Ukraine
does get linked into the West if Ukraine
does become a member of NATO and become
a member of the EU the there you know
there's going to be a lot of money in
this for the Western Elites will Russia
actually be forced to become proactively
involved in Ukraine there is as you know
a very sizable minority of Russians
speaking people Russia is vitally
threatened by the West moving in uh to
the Ukraine conflict how dangerous can
this get I think it's very dangerous
because I think if I was Russian an
ethnic Russian living in Ukraine i' be
extremely worried now what would happen
if these fascists do come to power or
allowed to share power because we know
quite clearly that the West will allow
them to come to power broadcaster writer
and analyst Neil Clark telling it like
it
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is now it's your turn to tell us what
you think in the social media review gri
what's rattling the pipes on Ukraine a
lots from Germany we got bopus kangaroo
saying because German and now song from
theu is able to do it and wants to
create a counterbalance to Putin the
Germans are extremely busy in Ukraine uh
Klitschko the heavyweight boxer that you
were just talking about he is Germany's
man in this picture and it's a great
irony uh that the Germans of course in
their Nazi period invaded and occupied
Ukraine massacred massive numbers of
people not just just Jews though every
Jew they could get their hands on uh but
massacred uh hundreds of thousands of
people in Ukraine and now they're back
on the streets of Kiev acting through
the foundations the so-called NOS the
Trojan horses that we always see in
these color code revolutions yeah
supporting these neo-nazis and
anti-semites to which Lana Del responses
well they would support flesh eating
zombies if it was in their Je political
and economic interests so no morals Joe
M sends us a very powerful picture
showing mckain sharing a meal with the
Ukraine Neo-Nazi party spoda there he is
sitting with them on at table this is
really important because McCain is one
of the world's greatest supporters of
Israel he's in with all the Zionist
organizations in the United States they
all supported his presidential run and
there he is in that picture having a
meal with the leader of a party which is
openly Nazi which is openly anti-semitic
do the Jewish organizations in the
United States not know this or are they
just keeping quiet about it about um
Bloody Sunday well we discussed about
how on the eve of it they started uh
raising the flags and the flags of the
parachute regiment that did The Killing
yes yeah uh a Garrett sent us a picture
of it how flags are being erected in
Irish streets today member of shen F
Michael mccrossen sent us a few others
from the Bloody Sunday anniversity
itself saying I just spoke on Drive 105
reiterating my call for unionist leaders
to use their influence to ensure British
par flags are removed in Dairy actually
the British army should require the
bringing down of these flags this is a
provocation designed to shed still more
blood blood what right do loyalist thugs
have to erect the flag of the parachute
Regiment of the British army this
Insignia belongs to the British Army and
the British army is controlled by the
British government and they should make
sure that the police take down these
flags right away because on the eve of
an anniversary in which the parachutists
killed 14 unarmed demonstrators that's a
provocation asking for real trouble and
everybody knows it it's nobody in the
right mind would dare to go up their
lamp post except bunch of would climb a
lamp post to put up an Army flag of a
regiment that killed 14 of your fellow
citizens in your city uh all these
decades ago fortunately the local
residents did not rise to the
provocation indeed well that's it for
this week which sadly means that's all
we've got time for you know where to
reach us on Twitter it's at rtor Sputnik
and on Facebook you can find us at
Sputnik on Russia today it's goodbye
from me gri and from me George Gallow
it's been marvelous
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